Talk:OpenMarineXML Version 2.0
From Wiki.openmarine.org
Hi Ben,
I've just noticed that the Release 1 PDF does not contain the field passenger_capacity but it is in the Release 1 HTML page. Could you update the PDF - thanks.
Simon - TheYachtMarket.com
Contents |
[edit] Sails
We have furling as a boolean option to indicate whether the genoa is furling or not. Should we also add this for mail_sail and storm_jib? I.E.
<rig_sails>
<item name="genoa" material="" furling="" />
<item name="spinnaker" material="" />
<item name="tri_sail" material="" />
<item name="storm_jib" material="" furling="" />
<item name="main_sail" material="" furling="" />
<item name="winches" />
</rig_sails>
I don't know if there's such a thing as a furling spinnaker or tri-sail. Anyone?
Simon - TheYachtMarket.com
[edit] Last updated on images and other media
Me again!
I suggest for the next version we have a last_updated or modified attribute on the media tags.
i.e. <media type="MIME Media Type" caption="" primary="" modified="datetime" />
If this is set to the date and time that the broker uploads the image to the original web site then each site can check the modified date against their own record to avoid downloading the file every day if it has not changed.
Simon - TheYachtMarket
[edit] office_id data type
Release 1 states that the office_id attribute of the advert node should be an integer. However the BoatShop24 feed is using a string e.g. "linc01". I suggest that we continue to allow strings for office_id but just update the schema to say the datatype is string rather than integer.
Simon White - Developer for TheYachtMarket
[edit] Persistent Advert Refs
The main problem we've experienced with feeds is when the 'ref' attribute of the <advert> tag for a given boat advert changes from one feed to another.
Our system uses the ref attribute as an identifier to tell whether a given boat should be updated (as a change to a boat's spec) or inserted (as a new boat).
We also use the advert ref to tell us which boats need to be deleted; any boat for a given account that is on our system but does not appear in the next feed gets deleted from our system.
For this to work, advert refs need to always be the same for any given boat. However, some feeds have had the advert ref change for a given boat advert in between feeds. The problem this causes is that all the boats for that feed get deleted and replaced - rather than being updated. This results in the hits and leads data being dissasociated from the boat adverts they relate to.
Ideally, we should ensure that the advert ref is always the same for any given boat advert.
Have other people experienced the same problem? Does anyone have any solution?
Simon White - TheYachtMarket
[edit] boat categories
We at boatshop feel that we need to come up with a unified list of boat categories that we can map to at ether end. We feel that the list should remain relatively short as this will keep the amount of server side work done well still allowing for an acceptable level data integrity. Not been of a boating background we feel that the actual list should be drawn up someone that is more in touch with the boating world.
Boatshop24.ltd Web Development Team
[edit] Reffering to previous posts
Furling sails “We have furling as a boolean option to indicate whether the genoa is furling or not. Should we also add this for mail_sail and storm_jib? I don't know if there's such a thing as a furling spinnaker or tri-sail. Anyone?”
A trysail is similar to a storm jib, it is a small robust loose footed sail used in place of the mainsail. Storm jibs and trysails would not normally have roller furling. Tri-radial sails however are very different and I would not think it advisable for Open Marine to get involved in too much detail about sail types, there are hundreds of them. More details of Tri Radial at :- http://www.force10sails.com/trg.shtml
A Gennaker (genoa-spinnaker) is a type of genoa that is used like an asymmetrical spinnaker.
If a mainsail is taken down and the sail folded over the boom and lashed there, it is said to be furled. Brokers and boat buyers know that most sails can be furled, however if it is possible to furl them from the cockpit as with roller furling that is of considerable interest. Boats with roller furling mainsails cost more and should be easier to furl.
Modern headsails are usually furled using roller furling. On the other hand, mainsails are normally furled by being taken down, folded over the boom and lashed there.
Because most mainsails can be furled (with or without roller furling) it would be confusing to have a tag called furling, it should be called roller_furling, or maybe cockpit_furling, meaning it can be furled from the cockpit.
Spinnakers do not normally have roller furling, but they can have a “snuffer” to control the sail when taking it down. Spinnakers with a snuffer are of more interest to purchasers because it costs more and makes removing the sail easier, therefore a new boolean tag for spinnaker_snuffer would be appropriate.
My suggestions are
<rig_sails>
<item name="genoa" material="" furling="" />
<item name="spinnaker" material="" snuffer="" />
<item name="storm_jib" material="" />
<item name="main_sail" material="" cockpit_furling="" />
<item name="trysail" material="" />
<item name="winches" />
</rig_sails>
Engine (additional field). As you already have so many fields of information, I would like to see a boolean tag to define if the engine(s) are turbo_charged or not.
<engine>
<item name="stern_thruster" />
<item name="bow_thruster" />
<item name="fuel" />
<item name="hours" />
<item name="cruising_speed" />
<item name="max_speed" />
<item name="horse_power" />
<item name="engine_manufacturer" />
<item name="engine_quantity" />
<item name="tankage" unit="gallons/litres" />
<item name="gallons_per_hour" />
<item name="litres_per_hour" />
<item name="engine_location" />
<item name="gearbox" />
<item name="cylinders" />
<item name="propeller_type" />
<item name="starting_type" />
<item name="drive_type" />
<item name="cooling_system" type="" />
<item name="turbo_charger />
</engine>
Last updated on images and other media I agree as detailed above, from my point of view it is easy to implement.
Persistent Advert Refs I agree that ref tags should not only be unique but should be attributed to one boat and remain with that boat for the duration of the sale process.
boat categories This is much more difficult, it would be almost impossible to create a definitive list, unless it was very very short.
George Llewellin gl@forumboats.com
[edit] vat_included
Rather than just having "True" or "False" values, it would be good if the vat_included attribute of the asking_price node was allowed a value of NA - meaning not applicable. This is because VAT simply does not apply to some boats, so saying it's included or not included may be misleading.
Simon White - TheYachtMarket.com
[edit] vat_included
I agree with Simon, the current method has ambiguities. It is my opinion that the tag should remain a simple boolean field but be changed from :-
<asking_price poa="" currency="" vat_included="" />
To :-
<asking_price poa="" currency="" tax_liable="" />
So that the part we are concerned with could be one of the following :- 1. tax_liable="true" 2. tax_liable="false" 3. tax_liable=""
The last return "" being equivalent to “Not known”. One cautionary note about the above suggestion, if adopted it will mean that for currently listed boats the boolean tag would need to be reversed. I will find that easy to accommodate others may not.
If a boat is not liable for VAT then the price quoted is the price to be paid. If liable for VAT then the price normally does not including the tax, but it is made clear that the tax is chargeable. It is important from the broker’s and the purchaser’s points of view that this situation is maintained.
The proposed change would accommodate the existing practice clearly and concisely, without ambiguity. The VAT situation can be confusing because :- 1. Boats built before 31 Dec 1984 are deemed to be VAT paid but only if they were physically within the EU as of 31 Dec 1992. 2. VAT does not have to be added if the vessel is being exported outside the EU. 3. VAT can sometimes be reclaimed by the purchaser after purchase. This list could be much longer.
More details on UK rates on the HM Revenue & Customs website > http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/VAT/forms-rates/rates/rates.htm There are currently 3 rates of VAT in UK 1. standard rate - currently 15 per cent, but due to increase to 17.5 per cent on 1 January 2010. 2. reduced rate - currently 5 per cent. 3. zero rate. There are also goods rated as exempt, and goods outside the scope of VAT and these have to be treated in different ways to the zero rated goods. This results in five classes of VAT in UK alone.
George - Fast-net for Yacht Brokers - Forum Software Ltd.
[edit] A few more suggestions for changes to the Open Marine XML.
There are problems with the way some of the most important fields have been set up and with the way some of the portals use them. I view this not from a web developer’s or web portal’s point of view but from a yacht broker’s or yachtsman’s point of view.
In my opinion the following tags are the most important and at the heart of handling boat data. There is no clear definition for the content of some of them. “Pre-set Tags” :- <boat_type> “Sail”, “Motor” or “Other”, very clear definition. <boat_category> No clear definition, different portals use different selection lists, some use free text. <manufacturer> Indicates the manufacturer of the boat. <model> Indicates the model of the boat. Not very clear. “Optional Item Tags” - <build>
<item name="designer"> <item name="builder">
One of the important fields when handling boat data is the power source “Sail” or “Motor”. Open Marine have chosen to use <boat_type> for this tag. I would like to see this tag called <propulsion> or <power> which is more descriptive of what it is. However it does what it is meant to do and has a clear definition of possible content, great.
The single most important field is what was called before computers, “Type or Class”, the nearest Open Marine tag for this is <model>. This is at the heart of the system’s problems, I believe this tag should be called <type_or_class>.
Another obvious problem is that there is a <manufacturer> and a <item name="builder"> surely these two are both the same. If I search the <manufacturer> for “Beneteau” then I do not find it if the data has been placed in the other tag and vice versa.
To make matters worse some portals require <manufacturer> in order to get the information displayed. What is more <manufacturer> is sometimes then concatenated with <model>. Consequently some brokers have boats on the web with all the data in the XML file but only a small part of it displayed and a number have boats being described like this "Beneteau Beneteau First 32"
If you wanted to search the web for a “Land Rover” you do not expect see the results as “Jaguar Land Rover”, “British Leyland Land Rover”, “BMW Land Rover”, “Ford Land Rover” or even a “Tata Motors Land Rover”. However it would be helpful to see other information like “Land Rover – 2006 - £15,000 – 60,000 miles – North Wales”. I have run such a search and I did not find one description that mentioned the manufacturer. It is the same with boats, the manufacturer is a required field of information but does NOT need to be in the main descriptive field, with boats the main field is traditionally called “Type or Class”.
I do not want to see “Northshore Vancouver 32” or “Pheon Vancouver 32” I just want to see “Vancouver 32”, and maybe other more relevant information. So come on guys, lets get our act together and make our websites work in the way the users, both brokers and sailors, want them to.
I was a yacht broker for a number of years and I have worked with computers since 1980, I am sure, when searching, there should be only one main field to define the “Type or Class” (<model>) of boat. Other fields can be used to reduce the number of boats found in searches, the most useful are means of propulsion (Sail or Motor), LOA from and to, Price from and to, age from and to and country. These are or should be clearly defined fields.
<boat_category> Brokers do not always enter this field, and there is a problem here because different web portals use different selection lists and others allow free text entry. Because there can never be a definitive selection list for this field or tag, it is of limited use. Searches can have only partial success. I agree that the list should be as short as possible, I have a list (much to long) that is used as a default list in the Fast-net system, brokers are able to modify this list. If anyone wants a copy I am happy to make it available, however it is much too long and contains most of the options from a number of websites as well as data from some of the brokers using Fast-net.
Most boats in UK used for pleasure purposes are not required to have a certificate, however small boats are required by law to be MCA coded (certified) if used in any way commercially, and that includes boats that just take a small number of paying passengers on a fishing trip or for a sail. Certification is not cheap and involves a detailed survey of boat and equipment and the certificate has to be regularly updated. This therefore can sometimes be an important factor when buying or selling a boat. More details at www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mgn_280-3.pdf also Practical Boat Owner No. 516 December 2009, has a section on “MCA Coding of your yacht”.
There really should be a boolean field to indicate if a vessel is Certified for Commercial use. I suggest :- <commercial> “Yes” / “No” / “”. or <commercial_certificate> “Yes” / “No” / “”.
I would find it useful to have the number of boats (<adverts>) detailed near the beginning and would suggest the following :- Change the tag - <adverts> To - <adverts number_of=“”> This could be useful but is not essential to me, if others have good reason for this not to be implemented then so be it.
It would also be useful to have rig details added e.g. <rig_sails> <item name="rig_type" />
Several people I have spoken to in the last few months have expressed a desire to get on with Version 2 of Open Marine. So come on everyone, lets have your responses to the above, both favourable and otherwise, together with any other suggestions you may have.
All the best for 2010, George Llewellin, Forum Software Ltd. (Fast-net for Yacht Brokers CRM).
